Oooh, an argument... I mean lively Christian discussion... I want in!

Don't worry Brother Hank and Edmund; I mean that in jest. I just think it's ironic that I did post about James teaching on conflict and arguments a week or so before Hank started this last series. So I encourage you both to be careful and remember that the point of each posting should be to Glorify God. That said, while I've had a long day and been staring at the computer screen at work for most of it, what I skimmed seems to be a very logical and methodical perspective from both of you with that very end in mind. I commend you both. All that said, it may not matter much since we could probably count the "millions" of readers on this blog on our fingers!

Considering it's past 11... and I have to get up at a 7 on a Saturday... I'll be as brief as possible but still throw in a couple comments that actually seem to echo what Edmund has already said (sorry Hank- looks like you're the odd man out on this blog right now!).

So let's see. Luther was definitely a great figure in the Christian faith. But I think that we may sometimes put too much weight into what "heros" of the modern church, if you will, have to say. For instance, while Luther did a lot of great things, if you read some of his later writings, he became incredibly anti-Jew. A lot of people think it may have been because he loved them so much that they frustrated him by denying Christ. There may be some truth there. But if you were a Jew and read some of the stuff he wrote, you'd probably cry. That said, not trying to bash Luther. Just using it to prove a point: ultimately, everyone that is not Christ will make mistakes. And while Luther is a much better role model than say a modern figure considered a role model to many like Oprah Winfrey, you have to take everything he says with a grain of salt. And after this discussion, maybe you should touch on Instrumental Music because Wesley was very anti instruments in church too. Just saying!

So because I want to steer clear of quoting a lot of people far smarter than myself (somewhat because of the above paragraph and part because I'm sleepy and lazy and don't want to do research for this post right now!), I'll just lay out a few concise thoughts (and for those of you who know me, concise thoughts are probably the complete opposite of what I ever deliver, so maybe I should say quick and unformalized).

As I said, I fall on Edmund's side of this slope. Yes, God created marriage with procreation an important feature, but even in Genesis, I don't think that was the reason for it. God created Adam out of dirt, and Eve out of Adam's rib. So if He simply wanted to populate the earth, He could have snapped his figures and put the population of China in Eden. But in God's eternal plan, that's not what He had in mind. Think about it, what was God thinking when He made Eve. It wasn't, let's make Eve to have kids. Scripture says, God realized it was not good for man to be alone so He made Eve to be a partner to Adam. Eve was created not to bear children first and foremost. She was created to provide companionship to Adam.

Fast forward to Song of Solomon. Heck, numerous people fought to keep that book out of the Bible because they considered it too racy. That book doesn't center around children, while they are a blessed byproduct of the intimacy between Man and Wife. It centers around the intimacy of a man and wife delighting in each other's love and each other's bodies. I mean, if it wasn't in the Bible, if the Song of Solomon was made into a movie, it'd be NC-17.

I think Christ gave us even the greatest insight into marriage by His constant references that the Church was the bride to Christ. Husbands ought to love their wives the way Christ loved the Church and wives were supposed to love their Husbands with complete devotion. To that end, I think that in God's eternal plan, part of marriage was also formed to be a type for Christ. Because by understanding the love in a marriage, we have but the slightest glimpse into the love of Christ for His church.

As such, I think marriage is first and foremost about the husband and the wife and the relationship between them. Because only when they have a solid and Christian marriage will they be able to rear their children to know and fear the Lord the way God intended.

And I realize I haven't actually talked about birth control yet, so let me now dive in. If marriage is first and foremost about the intimacy, and not procreation, then birth control doesn't seem to be in the least unBiblical. Because God is sovereign over birth control of no birth control. Now, don't get me wrong. Some people will misconstrue that to say well they we can do anything we want and since God is sovereign he will stop me from doing something bad or if He allows me, it's okay. Well, that's ludicrous. But people said similar things about Grace and Paul didn't stop preaching it or change his message.

I worked with a lady once who had a child after her tubes had been tied. According to google, that procedure is 99.5% effective for preventing child birth. Let me tell you, those are pretty good odds. But God wanted her to have a child, so she did. Heck, Jesus was born of a virgin, the ultimate birth control- abstinence. But God can work beyond such measures.

Now, if you soley are using birth control as a means of defying God, THEN it's not scriptural. Because if you trust in ANYTHING other than HIM first, you are making it an idol. So if a couple takes the mindset of we can only rely on each other so we must do everything we can do to prevent getting pregnant because we don't care if God wants us to have kids, clearly, that's bad. But I don't think that either of us can say for certainty that God doesn't also use birth control in His sovereign plan as a means to His ends.

The argument that you used Brother Hank of the question of faith could cause you to never go to a doctor. One could say, well, if God wants me to get well, He'll heal me- He can if He wants to. Well, that statement is true. But God's sovereignty doesn't mean that we aren't still responsible to make decisions. It just means that our decisions are tied with His predestined plan. Personally, I think physicians are commonly used by God to save people He wants to keep living. Could he save them with no doctors? Absolutely! But I think God knows every person a doctor will save in his entire life before there was time and prepares that doctor all his/her life to save them. The doctor is performing the surgeries. But God is still behind the life or death outcome.

Or let's jump to the Battle of Jerico. They march around the city I think 6 days and on the 7th day, blow their trumpets per God's orders. What happens, the wall falls down. But I ask, would the walls have fallen if they hadn't marched around the city and blown their horns?? I don't think so. The wall fell down by grace, not works of them. But if they hadn't marched and been obedient, those walls might still be standing.

Anyway, hope that isn't too incoherent. I'm not going to bother rereading what I've written. It's nearly midnight and it'll probably be more true to my natural thoughts when it's just off the top of my head anyway.

And let me close by just stating that we all do have to be careful here. Because the worst thing we could do is offend someone over an issue like this and turn them away. Because I think we'd all agree this isn't a salvational issue. Edmund and I have actually had the conversation of Free Will vs. Predestination, and Edmund, you'd be happy to hear I know fall fully into the latter (go Calvin!). But one thing we agreed on is that the people who spend their whole lives researching and arguing that issue and arguing it with other Christians, aren't being true to the Gospel and sharing the good news. Because at the end of the day, it's not about is it right or wrong to take a pill. It's about the fact that according to Isaiah, even our most righteous acts are but a filthy rag to God and it's only through the saving blood and grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who died on the cross, rose from the dead to defeat sin/death forever, remove our sins and whatsmore, credit all HIS acts of righteousness to our behalf so when God looks at us, He sees His son and we are adopted into His family and sealed with His Spirit who convicts us to turn from our old ways and leads us to repentance and prays on our behalf... That's the Gospel and that's what's important. And yes, that's also a run on sentence! So if you are reading this article and agree strongly one way or another, know we all agree on that. We're all eternally lost without Jesus; and it's His grace that gives us the freedom to have conversations like this in Christian love. And with that, good night. Just a side note, I'm in the process of finishing up work this week and packing and moving into my new apartment next week, so don't expect me to rejoin the foray for a while. I trust you two will keep it going!